1 00:00:14,849 --> 00:00:17,009 Jamie Duncan: All right, and thanks for joining us on the 2 00:00:17,009 --> 00:00:21,629 first episode of 2021. For the K files, this is Episode 12. 3 00:00:22,650 --> 00:00:27,360 We had planned to do an episode in late November, early December 4 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,570 to round out 2020. And then the world kind of ended. 5 00:00:31,739 --> 00:00:35,669 And then the world never really started back up. So we will get 6 00:00:35,669 --> 00:00:38,849 back to the CI CD series we talked about, we just honestly 7 00:00:38,849 --> 00:00:42,959 do not have the bandwidth in our brains to do that extra work and 8 00:00:42,959 --> 00:00:47,309 to be able to deliver any kind of meaningful thought on it. So 9 00:00:47,519 --> 00:00:50,579 what we talked about earlier, and we were kind of figuring 10 00:00:50,579 --> 00:00:52,499 out, we knew we wanted to record something we knew we wanted to 11 00:00:52,499 --> 00:00:55,889 get something out there. And the first thing I think it was out 12 00:00:55,889 --> 00:00:57,809 of I think, john, you're the one that said it maybe it was you, 13 00:00:57,809 --> 00:01:01,769 Tarik, I don't remember which, but why is why is it all so damn 14 00:01:01,769 --> 00:01:06,359 hard? Like, and that's what we're gonna kind of try to 15 00:01:06,359 --> 00:01:09,329 explore. And it may take a couple of different directions. 16 00:01:09,599 --> 00:01:12,359 I think, john, you're thinking like, why is it so hard to get 17 00:01:12,359 --> 00:01:16,619 started in it? That's kind of where your brain is. My brain is 18 00:01:16,619 --> 00:01:20,939 more? Why is it so hard to solve a problem in our industry right 19 00:01:20,939 --> 00:01:25,649 now? Why does everything take 400 extra things when it didn't 20 00:01:25,649 --> 00:01:27,719 feel like it used to do that? torque? 21 00:01:28,290 --> 00:01:31,020 Tariq Islam: Yeah, I love the same mind to do Jamie, I am at a 22 00:01:31,020 --> 00:01:34,020 point now where it's like, I can't even Hello World Without 23 00:01:34,020 --> 00:01:37,650 googling eight things. And there's just no getting away 24 00:01:37,650 --> 00:01:40,410 from that now, every time I think john, you put it best, 25 00:01:40,410 --> 00:01:42,570 every time you sit down at your computer, it's like you have to, 26 00:01:43,110 --> 00:01:44,910 you're starting a whole project from scratch, and it's gonna 27 00:01:44,910 --> 00:01:46,020 take you eight years to, 28 00:01:46,530 --> 00:01:50,790 John Osborne: to get anywhere. It is I mean, it's the, I think 29 00:01:50,790 --> 00:01:54,120 that trend has been, you know, where thing is getting harder 30 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:59,490 and maybe optimizing for, you know, really use cases that 31 00:01:59,490 --> 00:02:02,730 aren't in the now has been happening for a while. But then 32 00:02:02,790 --> 00:02:06,960 with 2020, for me, personally, you know, I was just kind of 33 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,580 like, wiped out emotionally all year. And the time I had to work 34 00:02:11,580 --> 00:02:15,570 was in was just not as much that as the year before. And so, you 35 00:02:15,570 --> 00:02:18,510 know, sometimes, you know, I'd be doing meetings and other 36 00:02:18,510 --> 00:02:22,950 stuff, and you know, non coding and non, you know, real hands on 37 00:02:22,950 --> 00:02:26,100 keyboard stuff. And then, you know, I'd sit down after like 38 00:02:26,130 --> 00:02:28,860 two or three weeks, I'm not doing anything. And, you know, I 39 00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:32,130 have a lot of experience, but it was like starting over. You know 40 00:02:32,130 --> 00:02:34,080 what I mean? Because it's like, none of that stuff's in short 41 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,530 term memory, it would take so long to get back to where you 42 00:02:37,530 --> 00:02:41,070 were. And it, I spent a lot of time just thinking about, you 43 00:02:41,070 --> 00:02:44,100 know, I think some of us were, we're lucky that we had a 44 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:47,490 fundamental baseline knowledge of things. And we saw things 45 00:02:47,490 --> 00:02:50,760 like, you know, Kubernetes, and serverless, and all these types 46 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,850 of things that are in the know now, but I think if you're 47 00:02:53,850 --> 00:02:56,310 starting now, it's, it's actually really hard because you 48 00:02:56,310 --> 00:02:59,310 don't have, you know, deep learning experience or 49 00:02:59,310 --> 00:03:01,740 understands, like, deep networking, or how, like, the 50 00:03:01,740 --> 00:03:03,870 software defined network just kind of makes sense to you and 51 00:03:03,870 --> 00:03:07,530 those types of things. And so, you know, it's like, where 52 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,220 people ask me, like, how should I get started, and I try not to 53 00:03:11,220 --> 00:03:13,290 be too prescriptive, because everyone learns differently. 54 00:03:13,290 --> 00:03:17,070 But, you know, I do have some, some thoughts on it still, 55 00:03:17,669 --> 00:03:21,389 Tariq Islam: I'm gonna, I'm gonna call out also parents, 56 00:03:21,659 --> 00:03:26,069 right? I mean, during COVID, we got we got knocked around really 57 00:03:26,069 --> 00:03:30,689 hard, all year long, and we still kind of are, and the 58 00:03:30,689 --> 00:03:34,679 exhaustion between the navigating the pandemic, and 59 00:03:34,679 --> 00:03:39,869 work, and the kids. And just things happening, you know, by 60 00:03:39,869 --> 00:03:42,389 the time you sit down, and you're like, you know, what, 61 00:03:42,629 --> 00:03:46,469 today's the day that I'm finally going to learn go, right, right, 62 00:03:46,469 --> 00:03:49,289 right. And it just, it just, you just don't have the energy for 63 00:03:49,289 --> 00:03:51,419 it. And then you get that anxiety and then you run out of 64 00:03:51,419 --> 00:03:54,449 time, because you know, you got a kid screaming, or you can, 65 00:03:54,659 --> 00:03:57,269 something else has come up, that's higher priority than 66 00:03:57,269 --> 00:03:59,669 learning a language that you probably won't end up using on a 67 00:03:59,669 --> 00:04:01,379 regular basis tomorrow. 68 00:04:01,890 --> 00:04:04,260 John Osborne: I mean, I had so much anxiety, like we're also 69 00:04:04,260 --> 00:04:06,660 building this house way over budget, like, you know, 70 00:04:07,110 --> 00:04:09,630 financial stuff, and like, I had so much anxiety for a lot of 71 00:04:09,630 --> 00:04:14,040 2020 that I would go 90 days without returning somebody text 72 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,560 messages like people wish me happy birthday in August. I 73 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,500 replied in like, November, December, and then I got so much 74 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:22,230 anxiety because one day I just like had a cup of coffee and I'm 75 00:04:22,230 --> 00:04:23,820 like a reply though. And then they started replying right 76 00:04:23,820 --> 00:04:26,490 away, like I replied, You know, it took me nine days to reply, 77 00:04:26,490 --> 00:04:27,630 they replied right away, and then 78 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,430 they replied right away. That was john. And then and then I 79 00:04:32,430 --> 00:04:35,220 just replied to those their text messages like last week. And so 80 00:04:35,220 --> 00:04:37,830 it's like, if I can't even reply to a text message from a friend 81 00:04:37,830 --> 00:04:38,790 like how am I supposed to sit? 82 00:04:40,350 --> 00:04:42,510 There do all this stuff, but it's like, you know, it's just 83 00:04:42,510 --> 00:04:43,530 been crazy. 84 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,080 Jamie Duncan: Yeah, there's got to be something to that because 85 00:04:46,500 --> 00:04:50,580 I kind of live my life in a in a state of interrupt. 86 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,820 John Osborne: You really do. I'm actually floored with how, like 87 00:04:53,820 --> 00:04:57,210 you can context switch so easily, Jamie, that it's kind 88 00:04:57,210 --> 00:04:59,310 Jamie Duncan: of right. I do it constantly, right. So it's 89 00:04:59,310 --> 00:05:02,160 purely a learning Skill because I have no attention span 90 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,060 whatsoever. And I used to think I had this amazing ability to 91 00:05:06,060 --> 00:05:09,840 focus. And when I got a little self awareness, I realized I 92 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:13,620 wasn't focusing at all. I was just spinning 50 plates at once. 93 00:05:13,830 --> 00:05:19,050 Yeah. And so I always thought that kind of burnout. I wasn't 94 00:05:19,050 --> 00:05:21,510 burnout proof, no one's burnout proof, but I thought I was more 95 00:05:21,510 --> 00:05:25,500 resistant to it than other people. And I felt it. And I 96 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:31,170 think that, and I've kind of built in my own head, the thing 97 00:05:31,170 --> 00:05:35,910 that I value my own skill, is it if if it's just if the thing 98 00:05:35,910 --> 00:05:40,080 between me and doing something well is hard work, I feel okay. 99 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:45,420 That 100 we're sitting down to knock it out, I'm good. If I've 100 00:05:45,450 --> 00:05:49,260 got to outwork somebody, I've got that in the back. Man the 101 00:05:49,260 --> 00:05:54,270 past few months, like more times than I want to admit freely, I 102 00:05:54,270 --> 00:05:56,670 would be sitting at my desk and realize I was staring at the 103 00:05:56,670 --> 00:05:59,850 same screen for 10 minutes. And then the only thought in my head 104 00:05:59,850 --> 00:06:01,920 was go lay on the couch in the other room. 105 00:06:02,550 --> 00:06:04,260 John Osborne: Oh, yeah. I mean, like, we're just 106 00:06:04,350 --> 00:06:10,710 Jamie Duncan: like the work like it's oppressive. And I don't 107 00:06:10,710 --> 00:06:14,160 know how much of that is just sort of, I don't I don't know 108 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,800 how much of the Why is everything so damn hard, is 109 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,500 because the world we're living in is essentially a wood 110 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:19,980 chipper. 111 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,620 John Osborne: I think it's they're related. I mean, 112 00:06:22,650 --> 00:06:26,490 everything has been getting harder. But the emotional energy 113 00:06:26,910 --> 00:06:32,160 that you have to do it all. Again, we're just not there. I 114 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,070 mean, there were times Yeah, we're not like, you know, I have 115 00:06:35,070 --> 00:06:37,980 to be on video a lot, too. So and I'm introverted. So you 116 00:06:37,980 --> 00:06:40,140 know, two hours being on video talking a lot. Like, yeah, I'd 117 00:06:40,140 --> 00:06:43,260 have to lay down after the middle, you know, like, 118 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,500 Jamie Duncan: lay down, you mean fetal position. And 119 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:50,280 John Osborne: then I'm gonna go, you know, cry in the shower 120 00:06:50,340 --> 00:06:50,700 floor. 121 00:06:51,930 --> 00:06:54,420 Jamie Duncan: I was actually so I had lunch with a friend, a 122 00:06:54,420 --> 00:06:58,830 good friend of mine, like, we worked together for years. And 123 00:06:59,190 --> 00:07:02,250 so we're sitting, you know, we're doing the whole social 124 00:07:02,250 --> 00:07:04,350 distancing. But we hadn't seen each other in months. And we 125 00:07:04,350 --> 00:07:09,060 were kind of in she was in the bubble. pretty consistently. So 126 00:07:09,060 --> 00:07:11,520 like, we're like, we've shared enough germs that we're kind of 127 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:16,110 in the same in the same bubble. And we hadn't seen her since God 128 00:07:16,140 --> 00:07:21,120 before Thanksgiving. So we had lunch yesterday. And she's like, 129 00:07:21,150 --> 00:07:24,180 How are y'all doing? Like, how's the family and the only thing I 130 00:07:24,180 --> 00:07:28,770 could express to her was, I don't have any capacity left. 131 00:07:30,180 --> 00:07:36,210 Like, I'm just empty. And but the list of things on my to do 132 00:07:36,210 --> 00:07:44,160 list is not empty. It's not going down. And part of it is 133 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,450 that the industry has gotten so nuts and I don't know another 134 00:07:48,450 --> 00:07:51,570 word to put to it. Yeah. But it was like, it's, 135 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,720 Tariq Islam: there's this. I think I might have a term for 136 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:55,110 it. It's 137 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,450 it. There's, it's like a fetishization of abstraction. I 138 00:08:00,450 --> 00:08:06,180 feel like, I'm going to put it I maybe that's not the right term, 139 00:08:06,210 --> 00:08:10,410 but I feel like that's the right term. It's just everything. And 140 00:08:10,410 --> 00:08:12,630 I think that's why I end up having to, like, if I want to do 141 00:08:12,630 --> 00:08:17,280 hello world, you know, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, take you like 142 00:08:17,310 --> 00:08:21,300 45 seconds, right? Sit down, do it knock it out. Now. It's like 143 00:08:21,330 --> 00:08:25,290 frameworks on frameworks on abstractions, and just doesn't, 144 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:28,920 I'm in the trap. Yeah, exactly. Like someone that personality 145 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,200 has been around for a long time, though. Cuz I remember, the 146 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,960 first time I actually got my first job out of college, I just 147 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,540 wrote c++ and didn't talk to anyone, which I, which I didn't 148 00:08:36,540 --> 00:08:38,280 like, at the time, but now I'd be like, Oh, that's amazing job 149 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:39,450 dream job, like. 150 00:08:40,620 --> 00:08:42,810 John Osborne: But the first time I actually looked at somebody 151 00:08:42,810 --> 00:08:47,070 else's code, as part as a full time coder, was like, there's it 152 00:08:47,070 --> 00:08:49,620 was Java code. And there was like, eight levels of 153 00:08:49,620 --> 00:08:52,890 abstraction and like clicking this abstract classes interface, 154 00:08:52,890 --> 00:08:55,650 and you got to actually see what the find like three lines of 155 00:08:55,650 --> 00:08:59,220 code. And I do feel like there's a personality in tech that just 156 00:08:59,220 --> 00:09:03,630 likes that, like, it's a very, quote unquote, clean to them. 157 00:09:04,470 --> 00:09:06,750 Tariq Islam: If that makes sense, that that abstraction, 158 00:09:06,780 --> 00:09:10,350 that abstraction, you know, when you I mean, that, that that 159 00:09:10,470 --> 00:09:14,670 object oriented, Java abstraction, right, the the 160 00:09:14,670 --> 00:09:16,860 interfaces and the implementations and the 161 00:09:16,860 --> 00:09:21,150 templating. And all that. That's when that's when I feel like, at 162 00:09:21,150 --> 00:09:23,940 least for me, I was like this, someone's gonna over engineer 163 00:09:23,940 --> 00:09:27,360 the hell out of something using this. And lo and behold, you 164 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,880 know, now we're here and everything feels over 165 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,670 engineered. Everything's got to be an abstracted framework. 166 00:09:32,670 --> 00:09:36,840 Everything's got to be, you know, some sort of standard. So 167 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,240 I feel for folks that are entering into the industry. I 168 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,970 mean, I see folks on Twitter that are, you know, starting 169 00:09:41,970 --> 00:09:45,600 their journey in tech as a developer. You see, Jamie 170 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,760 mentioned 100 days of code. It's, it feels I feel exhausted 171 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:51,420 for them. 172 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:55,440 Jamie Duncan: Yeah, now that's legit. So I mean, I'm doing a 173 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:56,250 writing project. 174 00:09:56,670 --> 00:09:58,770 John Osborne: Great, john, every aspects gotten harder. I mean, 175 00:09:58,770 --> 00:10:01,410 if you look at front end developers Even or something 176 00:10:01,410 --> 00:10:03,330 like that, where it's like before, you could just write 177 00:10:03,330 --> 00:10:07,350 some JavaScript and, you know, now it's like, it just feels so 178 00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:11,760 much more, more complicated. Even doing web development, you 179 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,490 know, this, in front end development can get super 180 00:10:14,490 --> 00:10:18,240 complicated. Especially if you start doing things like some of 181 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,210 the advanced html5 elements and things like that, I actually 182 00:10:21,210 --> 00:10:23,130 think it can get more complicated than the back end 183 00:10:23,130 --> 00:10:25,650 development, because there's like, the artistic side to it. 184 00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:29,130 Tariq Islam: Part of it is also, you know, I guess back in the 185 00:10:29,130 --> 00:10:31,620 day, I don't want I hate saying that, because it makes me feel a 186 00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:34,530 little old. But back in the day, you know, you only had so many 187 00:10:34,530 --> 00:10:36,510 languages and frameworks to choose from, like, for me, it 188 00:10:36,510 --> 00:10:45,780 was basically c++, Java, jQuery, CSS, PHP, go right or not go not 189 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:48,690 actually, like, take those and run with it, right. And 190 00:10:48,690 --> 00:10:51,060 everything was built off of that, and it was great. And you 191 00:10:51,060 --> 00:10:53,220 learn all the concepts and picking up new languages is not 192 00:10:53,220 --> 00:11:00,690 that big of a deal. You know, but now it's, it's, I feel like 193 00:11:00,690 --> 00:11:05,040 I could I could pick up a language Yes, but it what's 194 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,650 gonna, is it gonna be relevant in two weeks? 195 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,880 John Osborne: Before I feel like languages the difference, what, 196 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,130 like 15 years ago, the difference in languages was 197 00:11:14,130 --> 00:11:18,720 largely syntax. And now it's different fundamental ways of 198 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,740 thinking, if you think about functional programming, versus 199 00:11:22,740 --> 00:11:27,450 like rust versus go and there's a lot of, it's more than it's a 200 00:11:27,450 --> 00:11:30,150 lot more than syntax. Now, you actually have to retrain your 201 00:11:30,150 --> 00:11:33,900 brain. In some cases, languages went from being general purpose 202 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:38,220 to specialized in a way, but but there's but people still try to 203 00:11:38,220 --> 00:11:40,560 use them from purpose languages. Oh, yeah. 204 00:11:40,590 --> 00:11:41,820 Tariq Islam: Use go for everything. 205 00:11:42,929 --> 00:11:46,769 Jamie Duncan: One of the things, of course, duh. I mean, this is 206 00:11:46,769 --> 00:11:50,969 a Kubernetes. podcast, that has to be the answer. So there, I'm 207 00:11:50,969 --> 00:11:55,229 working on a little writing project for for a thing. And 208 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,409 part of like, the little introduction chapter, or 209 00:11:58,859 --> 00:12:01,889 paragraph is a little bit of a history lesson. And I was 210 00:12:01,889 --> 00:12:05,039 looking up some dates earlier today. And it really kind of 211 00:12:05,039 --> 00:12:06,809 blew me away because I'm thinking about them in the 212 00:12:06,809 --> 00:12:11,639 context of this. We're on this runaway train. Things are 213 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:18,299 getting harder, exponentially. And when did that start? And I 214 00:12:18,299 --> 00:12:21,449 don't know when it certainly didn't start with Kubernetes. 215 00:12:21,449 --> 00:12:24,359 But it certainly didn't start with Docker. It didn't start 216 00:12:24,359 --> 00:12:30,029 with whatever. But just to kind of put it in context. openshift 217 00:12:30,029 --> 00:12:33,119 to Dotto, so we all we were all at Red Hat at the time. 218 00:12:34,199 --> 00:12:41,189 openshift to Dotto was December 2013. So that was just over 219 00:12:41,189 --> 00:12:47,009 seven years ago. And that feels like at least 47 years ago. It 220 00:12:47,009 --> 00:12:47,729 really does. 221 00:12:48,030 --> 00:12:51,180 John Osborne: I mean, I can show you a picture of me for 2013 20 222 00:12:51,180 --> 00:12:51,420 years. 223 00:12:52,860 --> 00:12:54,900 Tariq Islam: I mean, to be fair, though, to be fair, the last 224 00:12:54,900 --> 00:12:57,270 year feels like it was 40 years ago. 225 00:12:57,809 --> 00:13:02,099 Jamie Duncan: I know it but I get that. I thought that but 226 00:13:02,099 --> 00:13:05,099 then I was like So look, I had to look up some other dates. 227 00:13:05,519 --> 00:13:10,049 Kubernetes one Dotto was only a year and a half after that. 228 00:13:12,719 --> 00:13:15,089 Yeah, there was only 18 months 229 00:13:15,990 --> 00:13:18,780 John Osborne: before filling every year, yeah, celery gets 230 00:13:19,140 --> 00:13:21,270 Jamie Duncan: gray and gray. So we've been on this train for a 231 00:13:21,270 --> 00:13:27,000 long time, and then it ran into 2020. And we all fit in a wood 232 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,030 chipper is the only thing the only analogy I can draw. 233 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,580 John Osborne: You know, part of the issue is the the technology 234 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,840 is iterating. So much faster than where most organizations 235 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,740 are now, that every year that gap gets greater and greater. 236 00:13:44,490 --> 00:13:47,820 And so every year, it just feels like I mean, if you look at the 237 00:13:47,820 --> 00:13:50,280 technologies that you know, what is supposed to be like the 238 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,190 simplest way to get up and running, you might think that 239 00:13:53,190 --> 00:13:58,200 might be you know, a managed serverless instance, right? But 240 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,480 then you go look at it, and it's like, Okay, well, I need more 241 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,250 than just the serverless framework, you know, I gotta 242 00:14:02,250 --> 00:14:05,280 connect it to an API gateway. And then I gotta get a web 243 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,430 application firewall, and then I got to learn how the, you know, 244 00:14:08,430 --> 00:14:11,280 kinesis is gonna work. And then you need a cache and an object 245 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,410 store before you know what you've learned via service 246 00:14:13,410 --> 00:14:16,830 meshes. Yeah. Before you know what you've learned, 10 247 00:14:16,830 --> 00:14:20,310 different. Your API gateway. Yeah, get out, you know, to get 248 00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:22,950 like a web app going. And never mind the fact that you got to, 249 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,780 you know, learn all this stuff. You have that. 250 00:14:25,140 --> 00:14:27,720 Tariq Islam: So, so I think I think there's two there's two 251 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,880 things to this. So when when I first went when I guess all of 252 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,590 us right when we first learned Kubernetes It was like, what's a 253 00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:40,260 pod was a service was a deployment, right? Then there 254 00:14:40,260 --> 00:14:43,260 was the openshift specific stuff back then anyway, right, the 255 00:14:43,260 --> 00:14:45,840 build config and you know, image stream and things like that. 256 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:52,260 That was like 80% of it. Now, five and a half years later, I 257 00:14:52,260 --> 00:14:57,840 mean, it's a it's a freaking me. Yeah, I mean, in fact, in fact, 258 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,050 there are folks there are folks out there learning You know, 259 00:15:01,410 --> 00:15:04,680 Kubernetes at layers of abstraction, where they're not 260 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,320 even considering things like learning what an actual 261 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,720 Kubernetes service is, or does or what the different types of 262 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,240 services there might be, they're just clicking buttons and 263 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:17,100 learning Kubernetes, you know, at the managed layer, where 264 00:15:17,100 --> 00:15:20,130 Yeah, I've touched Kubernetes before I've installed and spun 265 00:15:20,130 --> 00:15:24,510 up and used Kubernetes. But if you'd ask them, what a, a, you 266 00:15:24,510 --> 00:15:27,810 know, what the different types of a service are in Kubernetes, 267 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,720 they probably wouldn't be able to tell you. And and I don't, 268 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,360 I'm not saying that that's wrong, or that these individuals 269 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,990 know less. Because, you know, they don't have to no more than 270 00:15:36,990 --> 00:15:42,840 that, necessarily. But it's a huge gap. And I would argue that 271 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,470 you still do need to know that underlying stuff. But I don't 272 00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:49,890 think that I just don't think that people have the energy for 273 00:15:49,890 --> 00:15:53,940 that I put together a there are some, there's some folks that, 274 00:15:53,970 --> 00:15:57,450 you know, we've we've hired, and they're aspiring to specialize 275 00:15:57,450 --> 00:16:01,230 in the Kubernetes ecosystem. So I put together this, this 276 00:16:01,230 --> 00:16:04,140 curriculum of sorts, and this is maybe about a year and a half 277 00:16:04,140 --> 00:16:09,180 ago, year and a half ago. And I kind of went through, you know, 278 00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:12,210 everything that you need to know, in the community, or from 279 00:16:12,210 --> 00:16:15,540 a community perspective, right, the big, you know, major tools 280 00:16:15,540 --> 00:16:17,670 and technologies that you should be aware of, and that you should 281 00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:20,520 be able to talk to, and then from a product perspective, 282 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,390 right from from, you know, Google the vendor. And this 283 00:16:24,390 --> 00:16:27,390 document was like five pages long. And I'm looking at that, 284 00:16:27,390 --> 00:16:30,690 and I'm like, How did this happen? And this was 18 months 285 00:16:30,690 --> 00:16:33,570 ago. So I if I had to redo that Doc, I probably have to be 286 00:16:33,570 --> 00:16:35,970 adding another couple of pages. It's it's not. 287 00:16:38,070 --> 00:16:41,160 Jamie Duncan: So I wonder. So it was somewhat one of the people 288 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,250 Clark and I work with rich Schroeder is one of the project 289 00:16:44,250 --> 00:16:48,990 managers for for Google in the in Google Cloud. He had a tweet 290 00:16:48,990 --> 00:16:52,140 and I was looking for and I couldn't find it. But he was 291 00:16:52,140 --> 00:16:55,350 talking about some new thing. Oh, I think it was about like 292 00:16:55,350 --> 00:17:01,620 the some low code product that Google is, is is has released. 293 00:17:02,370 --> 00:17:06,240 And my response to it, because it's a pretty compelling thing 294 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,570 for like, I think the tweet, he had had some statistics, like, 295 00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:13,830 in 2019, X percent of applications were low code, no 296 00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:17,460 code, and that number is going up into the right, and all that 297 00:17:17,460 --> 00:17:23,130 kind of thing. And my response to him was that we abstract away 298 00:17:23,130 --> 00:17:28,050 the things that don't provide business value. And my thought 299 00:17:28,050 --> 00:17:31,740 at the time was, eventually virtual machines stopped 300 00:17:31,740 --> 00:17:35,610 providing business value, and we abstracted them. And we've tried 301 00:17:35,610 --> 00:17:38,550 that a couple of different ways. And then containers are stopped 302 00:17:38,580 --> 00:17:41,490 are not really the business value, like getting to the 303 00:17:41,490 --> 00:17:44,490 container, the cost savings of running Kubernetes running 304 00:17:44,490 --> 00:17:48,270 containerized apps, isn't there anymore, because it's everyone's 305 00:17:48,270 --> 00:17:52,170 doing it, so no one's doing it better. So we're abstracting The 306 00:17:52,170 --> 00:17:56,550 next thing? Is that kind of where is that where your head 307 00:17:56,550 --> 00:17:59,310 is? Tarik? Is that what you're thinking? Or? Because in to me 308 00:17:59,310 --> 00:18:01,830 that that kind of makes it a little valid? Because I'm trying 309 00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:05,370 to think, is this good or bad? Are we building a house of 310 00:18:05,370 --> 00:18:08,160 cards? Or is just the Tower of Babel getting taller? 311 00:18:08,820 --> 00:18:11,100 Tariq Islam: I think it's the latter. But at the same time, 312 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,060 it's still technology, right To this day, you know, however many 313 00:18:15,060 --> 00:18:20,520 years we've we've had Linux, right? It's always the network. 314 00:18:20,730 --> 00:18:25,710 It's always DNS, it always comes back to the fundamentals. And I 315 00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:29,430 think the risk is that, with this sprawl that we're 316 00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:34,230 experiencing, and the sheer velocity and the acceleration of 317 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,580 of this tech proliferation, I guess we can call it, it's gonna 318 00:18:38,580 --> 00:18:42,930 get harder and harder for folks to not just keep up. But even to 319 00:18:42,930 --> 00:18:45,870 start, right. And I think what's going to have to happen is folks 320 00:18:45,870 --> 00:18:49,230 are going to have to start from an abstracted level, and then 321 00:18:49,230 --> 00:18:54,840 work their way down on a case by case basis, which is not ideal. 322 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:55,200 But 323 00:18:55,259 --> 00:18:57,389 John Osborne: if someone asks you how to get started, what do 324 00:18:57,389 --> 00:18:59,609 you normally kind of advice that you give them? Because for me, 325 00:18:59,609 --> 00:19:05,099 personally, the way I learned is to build apps, or to build 326 00:19:05,099 --> 00:19:08,459 things that, like I want to build and kind of learn by 327 00:19:08,459 --> 00:19:11,879 doing, but I can't, like I can't just sit down and read, if I 328 00:19:11,879 --> 00:19:13,739 have all the fundamental framework. Yeah, I can read the 329 00:19:13,739 --> 00:19:16,289 docs and things will click but like, if I'm starting up from 330 00:19:16,289 --> 00:19:18,959 scratch, like I don't even read the docs until after I start 331 00:19:18,959 --> 00:19:20,489 using it because nothing will click. 332 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,920 Tariq Islam: So interestingly enough, I'm actually I'm 333 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,820 actually doing this with a with a couple of folks. Again, these 334 00:19:26,820 --> 00:19:30,600 are the same individuals that that are brand new to the space. 335 00:19:31,530 --> 00:19:34,590 So it's really interesting to see how they're taking all of 336 00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:41,550 this up. And it's gonna take at least a year to two for them to 337 00:19:41,550 --> 00:19:45,660 get caught up. But I actually had them start with getting a 338 00:19:45,660 --> 00:19:49,110 solid understanding of what makes up a container. Like I had 339 00:19:49,110 --> 00:19:52,290 them start at that level. Right? And I told them, don't touch 340 00:19:52,290 --> 00:19:56,160 Kubernetes. Don't touch any of the products right at the vendor 341 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,190 level. Don't even think about that stuff. Just get good with 342 00:19:59,190 --> 00:20:03,030 containers. Linux and Linux networking like it, you know, 343 00:20:03,030 --> 00:20:05,820 get those fundamentals down, because as soon as you do that 344 00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:09,930 everything else just gets easier from there, it just flows right? 345 00:20:09,930 --> 00:20:14,550 It'll take longer. But once you have that foundation, and I 346 00:20:14,550 --> 00:20:16,650 think that's what's so critical about this, right, I feel like 347 00:20:16,650 --> 00:20:20,310 folks are starting at a at an at an abstracted level, that's not 348 00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:24,300 giving them a proper foundation. For example, if I'm, if I'm 349 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:26,940 billing myself as a Kubernetes, expert, and I've only ever 350 00:20:26,940 --> 00:20:31,380 touched, you know, Eks, and aka s, and G, ke, and all these, you 351 00:20:31,380 --> 00:20:35,160 know, automated offerings, I might be good at all of these 352 00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:38,370 automated offerings. But as soon as I'm asked about, you know, 353 00:20:38,370 --> 00:20:44,400 something lower than that, I get hung up. So that's, I think, you 354 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,700 know, it's, it's, it's a point of exposure that I think folks 355 00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:49,710 are, it's the blind spot, actually, 356 00:20:50,039 --> 00:20:52,349 Jamie Duncan: I guess that's what put it, at least in my 357 00:20:52,349 --> 00:20:55,139 personal experience, I've always found it easier to go up the 358 00:20:55,139 --> 00:21:01,679 stack as opposed to down the stack. Are we? Do you all agree 359 00:21:01,679 --> 00:21:04,649 with that, or the percentage so like, we're gonna have a whole 360 00:21:04,649 --> 00:21:06,839 lot of people that have to go down the stack, we're gonna have 361 00:21:06,839 --> 00:21:11,039 to figure out how to account for that. Being, you know, the 362 00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:15,959 older, current, get off my lawn generation, in our industry. 363 00:21:16,410 --> 00:21:18,060 Tariq Islam: Yeah, I don't I don't mean to gatekeepers here. 364 00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:20,400 That's not I hope that's not the tone that we're taking, you 365 00:21:21,330 --> 00:21:23,100 John Osborne: know, trying to be the opposite. It's like, how do 366 00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:24,420 we make it more? 367 00:21:24,780 --> 00:21:27,060 Jamie Duncan: How do we make how do we make that consumable? 368 00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:28,320 consumable? Yeah. 369 00:21:29,550 --> 00:21:31,590 Tariq Islam: I think the culture has to change, right? Like, I 370 00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:34,920 think I think we have to promote, we have to start as a 371 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,340 tech industry, tech Twitter, right, like social media, I 372 00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:42,750 think we have to start promoting the this notion that it's okay 373 00:21:42,750 --> 00:21:46,320 to start from the bottom and to go slow, right there. This is 374 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,130 not a race. And, and having a good foundation from the basics. 375 00:21:50,130 --> 00:21:53,550 And the fundamentals is only going to make everything else 376 00:21:53,610 --> 00:21:56,400 that much easier, you'll accelerate and your velocity 377 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,670 will get to a point where it matches everybody else's. Right. 378 00:21:59,940 --> 00:22:02,670 But you got to spend the time and get get get those 379 00:22:02,670 --> 00:22:05,430 fundamentals down. And I think we have to promote that type of 380 00:22:05,430 --> 00:22:06,510 thing and reward it. 381 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,510 Jamie Duncan: I don't know. I don't, I don't know that I'm 382 00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:14,610 100% there. And the reason Are those the reason that I'm not 383 00:22:14,610 --> 00:22:19,350 sure there is are those 100 100 days of code people there is 384 00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:25,200 there is in this massive influx of people making 725 an hour who 385 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,220 are going through some Bootcamp, they saved up for self driving 386 00:22:29,220 --> 00:22:32,790 through some program, like 100 days of code. And they're 387 00:22:32,790 --> 00:22:38,400 looking at 6070 $80,000 a year Junior, whatever jobs, I don't 388 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,550 want to slow them down. I don't want to tell them to take it 389 00:22:41,550 --> 00:22:44,280 slow, because $7 an hour sucks. 390 00:22:44,730 --> 00:22:46,800 John Osborne: That's a whole there's a whole slew of people 391 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,120 out there, which I found myself on this kind of subgroup of 392 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:54,450 Twitter, where and I think it's awesome, by the way, but they 393 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,130 they basically use certifications to you know, pump 394 00:22:59,130 --> 00:23:01,620 up their salary. I would and I think that's awesome, by the 395 00:23:01,620 --> 00:23:05,430 way. And I do think we did the certifications episode. You 396 00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:10,680 know, I do think it does provide a good baseline knowledge. But 397 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,140 yeah, they're out there. And, you know, they're getting all 398 00:23:13,140 --> 00:23:14,670 these certifications, and they're getting really high paid 399 00:23:14,670 --> 00:23:18,180 jobs, and which is awesome. But then how do we take every little 400 00:23:18,180 --> 00:23:19,500 practical experience? Yeah, 401 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,130 Jamie Duncan: I found that experience. And the other 402 00:23:23,130 --> 00:23:26,220 thought that popped into my head was, and it stuck in my head. I 403 00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:29,730 mean, this is I guess, a year or so ago, was talking Duffy 404 00:23:29,730 --> 00:23:34,260 Cooley, who is Oji Kubernetes. awesome guy. I worked with him 405 00:23:34,260 --> 00:23:36,720 at VMware. I think he's he's moved on to a different role. 406 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:45,510 Now. He's, yeah. He was talking about how we're we being the 407 00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:51,720 Royal we in industry, in it are massively outnumbered. And he 408 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,420 had some numbers. And I wish I remembered the numbers. But my 409 00:23:54,420 --> 00:23:58,140 brain doesn't do that. Talking about like, the number of 410 00:23:58,140 --> 00:24:00,840 applications, the number of servers, the number of thing 411 00:24:00,870 --> 00:24:06,000 widgets in it over the next five years, and how we would, at the 412 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,970 current rate of growth of the it workforce, we'd all be 413 00:24:08,970 --> 00:24:14,400 responsible personally, for like 50,000 servers. We're gonna be 414 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,670 drastically outnumbered for what the world is doing and the world 415 00:24:17,670 --> 00:24:20,730 the fact that the world is becoming this IoT platform. 416 00:24:21,420 --> 00:24:25,410 Yeah. So we have to get these people in, we have to figure out 417 00:24:25,410 --> 00:24:31,890 how to get them up to speed. And I think maybe part of it is that 418 00:24:31,890 --> 00:24:34,710 maybe we make specialization a little bit more. Okay. 419 00:24:36,420 --> 00:24:38,940 John Osborne: I think it has to be because if you look at like 420 00:24:38,940 --> 00:24:41,760 even managed services, right, like if you use a managed 421 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,270 database, that doesn't, that helps you have less people on 422 00:24:45,270 --> 00:24:49,500 your team that need to know, deep database level knowledge, 423 00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:53,940 but still to do all the backups, the synchronization, the what 424 00:24:53,940 --> 00:24:56,490 happens when a production outage happens, like you still need to 425 00:24:56,490 --> 00:24:59,250 have some people that go really deep into databases, right? 426 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,240 Inside rant I actually the more I thought about it, I think this 427 00:25:03,270 --> 00:25:09,360 kind of this sprawl of technologies actually happen 428 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:13,020 first at the data layer, not at the application layer. Because 429 00:25:13,020 --> 00:25:16,740 if you think about how fast we went from just using SQL 430 00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:21,600 databases to all the different, no SQL databases, to all the 431 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,260 things with caching and invalidation to brokers, and 432 00:25:25,260 --> 00:25:30,540 queues, and Kafka, and all that stuff, and how fast that layer 433 00:25:30,540 --> 00:25:34,080 happened, that actually, to me happened first, and everyone 434 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,360 knows what CAP theorem is now and things like that, where it's 435 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:40,350 like, okay, that's a problem that we didn't have to that got 436 00:25:40,350 --> 00:25:42,810 a lot harder, a lot faster, just kind of a specialization of the 437 00:25:42,810 --> 00:25:46,890 data layer. But that did happen because of scale issues. I think 438 00:25:46,890 --> 00:25:50,130 that part of the challenge is like, well, not everyone's 439 00:25:50,130 --> 00:25:51,330 having a scale issue, right. 440 00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:57,450 Jamie Duncan: Yeah. So and then I guess, to top it all off, you 441 00:25:57,450 --> 00:26:01,380 know, not only are all of those things happening, they're 442 00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:06,870 happening in an ever increasing rate. And at least in the US, 443 00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:10,140 but we're certainly not the only group suffering from this. 444 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:16,050 Society is, you know, in a horrible state right now, in a 445 00:26:16,050 --> 00:26:23,760 lot of places. Like, like, I'm just sort of, I don't want to be 446 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,180 a Debbie Downer, but man, kind of a crap way to be right now. 447 00:26:27,870 --> 00:26:30,090 John Osborne: It is because they don't have the emotional energy. 448 00:26:30,180 --> 00:26:32,130 I mean, it's like somebody who's got shot in the street, and I'm 449 00:26:32,130 --> 00:26:35,130 supposed to sit down. And you know what I mean? Like, yeah, 450 00:26:35,130 --> 00:26:37,680 deep. And I was like, I can't I'm sorry, I just can't do it. 451 00:26:38,220 --> 00:26:38,700 Yeah, 452 00:26:38,730 --> 00:26:40,980 Tariq Islam: well, I was I was having a very productive day on 453 00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:45,240 January 6, up until the coup, and right at that point, that's 454 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,410 when I realized what was actually happening. I just kind 455 00:26:49,410 --> 00:26:52,290 of stopped working. And it wasn't even like a conscious 456 00:26:52,290 --> 00:26:54,930 decision, right? Where I was like, Okay, I'm going to cancel 457 00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:57,120 all meetings, and I'm not going to do anything at work, I'm 458 00:26:57,120 --> 00:27:00,150 taking the rest of the day off, it was literally like, it's 459 00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:06,600 like, my, my brain just stopped. Right. And I just, I was combing 460 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,350 through social media, looking for whatever coverage I could 461 00:27:10,350 --> 00:27:14,160 find, and looking at the pictures and the videos and the 462 00:27:14,190 --> 00:27:18,180 the sheer pandemonium of it all. I was just in desperate state of 463 00:27:18,180 --> 00:27:23,610 disbelief. And I couldn't, I completely forgot about work. 464 00:27:23,730 --> 00:27:27,420 And I was like, mid, like, in the middle of typing an email 465 00:27:27,450 --> 00:27:31,590 when when this all went down. And I, you know, I got to a 466 00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:34,710 point Finally, where, you know, I told I told folks, you know, 467 00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:38,280 please, please do what you got to do for, for your safety and 468 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,600 for your mental health. But, uh, man, there was a couple of 469 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,200 hours, there was just a total total pause. There was somebody 470 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,020 John Osborne: in that there was somebody at the Capitol yelling 471 00:27:49,020 --> 00:27:55,620 Turn on the gas. I mean, how am I supposed to work? during that? 472 00:27:55,620 --> 00:27:57,060 How am I supposed to work? People getting shot? How am I 473 00:27:57,060 --> 00:27:59,610 supposed to work when there's people on Reddit even 474 00:27:59,610 --> 00:28:04,140 bankrupting a $10 billion hedge fund? Right? It's been really 475 00:28:04,140 --> 00:28:06,870 hard. It's like, it's, 476 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,940 Tariq Islam: we'll see that thing, things, things. I mean, 477 00:28:08,940 --> 00:28:11,430 this is a really good mirror of what's been happening in tech. 478 00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:13,800 Not that tech, is that tragic, but what I'm saying is that 479 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,170 there's so many things happening, you know, our memory 480 00:28:16,170 --> 00:28:20,790 is only so long. And January 6, feels like half of an eternity 481 00:28:20,790 --> 00:28:24,390 ago. And we don't even we're not even, we're barely talking about 482 00:28:24,390 --> 00:28:27,780 it. Now. Right now, we're talking about GameStop. And, you 483 00:28:27,780 --> 00:28:30,450 know, market manipulation by retail investors, and is that 484 00:28:30,450 --> 00:28:33,510 even mid relation, and they're sticking it to the man, you 485 00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:36,300 know, the hedge fund managers and things like that. 486 00:28:36,510 --> 00:28:38,370 Jamie Duncan: But also weaponizing, Wall Street. 487 00:28:38,610 --> 00:28:42,000 Tariq Islam: Right? Right. And three weeks ago, we literally 488 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,520 had a coup of our government. 489 00:28:45,870 --> 00:28:48,150 John Osborne: So we have no emotional energy, we sit down, 490 00:28:48,210 --> 00:28:50,730 and technology's a billion times harder than it was five years. 491 00:28:51,330 --> 00:28:51,630 Yeah, 492 00:28:51,660 --> 00:28:54,120 Tariq Islam: I think I think the theme that we're all getting at 493 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:59,490 here is, I think we just need to just, I think we need to slow 494 00:28:59,490 --> 00:29:04,440 things down just a bit for ourselves. You know, I don't 495 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,990 think we can slow down the pace of everything outside of us. But 496 00:29:06,990 --> 00:29:11,940 I think we have to, I think we have to make it make it okay, to 497 00:29:11,940 --> 00:29:14,430 go a little bit slower. And actually, Jamie, I like that, 498 00:29:14,430 --> 00:29:18,300 you fact that the fact that you brought up the fact that you 499 00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:20,550 brought up about individuals that you know, are getting into 500 00:29:20,550 --> 00:29:23,550 this space, and don't have that luxury of time, right, I feel 501 00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:26,220 like you know, a lot of what I've said is from a place of 502 00:29:26,220 --> 00:29:30,000 privilege. And for folks that have that sense of financial 503 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,710 urgency, absolutely, you know, do what you have to do. And when 504 00:29:34,710 --> 00:29:39,150 you get there and you will absolutely get there. I still 505 00:29:39,150 --> 00:29:41,610 think it's important that you do take some time once you're in 506 00:29:41,610 --> 00:29:45,990 the door to go back and and get down to those fundamentals. 507 00:29:46,050 --> 00:29:49,740 Right. I think everyone owes it to owes it to themselves to do 508 00:29:49,740 --> 00:29:53,100 that at some point, maybe not at the very beginning. But at some 509 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:53,460 point. 510 00:29:54,990 --> 00:29:57,480 John Osborne: I think it's a really good point about you 511 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,480 know, it's okay to go slow because everyone's got Slower 512 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,240 right now. And if somebody calls you and expects you to go the 513 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,510 same speed, which that's happened to me a couple times in 514 00:30:06,510 --> 00:30:09,330 past year, it's like, I feel like those people are just bots, 515 00:30:09,420 --> 00:30:13,710 honestly. It's like, it's like, do you realize what's going on? 516 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,450 You know, have some, you know, show some emotion. Talk, I 517 00:30:18,450 --> 00:30:20,970 Jamie Duncan: love the idea of telling people to slow down and 518 00:30:20,970 --> 00:30:25,920 catch their breath and do what they need to do to be okay. How? 519 00:30:26,850 --> 00:30:29,490 Like, none of this other stuff. None of these other buzz saws 520 00:30:29,490 --> 00:30:31,590 that are flying in our head are slowing down 521 00:30:32,130 --> 00:30:35,430 Tariq Islam: in the back to back meetings every day, certainly 522 00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:38,130 aren't helping, because now we don't have to, you know, travel 523 00:30:38,130 --> 00:30:42,330 to a meeting or even change meeting rooms. Right? It's 524 00:30:42,330 --> 00:30:45,630 literally just clicking a button to end one call. And then five 525 00:30:45,630 --> 00:30:47,400 and a half seconds later joining the next one. 526 00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:52,230 John Osborne: I've been like, it's okay for me not to answer 527 00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:55,740 the call. Like, just because I'm not another call doesn't mean 528 00:30:55,740 --> 00:30:57,600 I'm going to answer everybody that just calls me out of the 529 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,680 blue, or I'm not going to text back people every right away and 530 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,250 all that stuff, because, or else I just sit here and just do 531 00:31:05,250 --> 00:31:07,980 notifications on my phone for all day, which I totally could 532 00:31:07,980 --> 00:31:10,260 do, because that's just how things go right now. 533 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,320 Jamie Duncan: I aspire to say no more often. 534 00:31:16,170 --> 00:31:17,760 John Osborne: But how to play more the long game? No. 535 00:31:19,770 --> 00:31:21,720 Jamie Duncan: Yeah, so so we have to figure out how to slow 536 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:27,030 down I our industry is moving at a pace that is approaching, you 537 00:31:27,030 --> 00:31:31,560 know, approaching the speed of light. The world is falling is 538 00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:34,830 ripping apart at the seams. We all need to catch our breath. 539 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,510 And I think I don't think there's like I know that sounds 540 00:31:39,510 --> 00:31:42,210 simplistic, but I don't think there's anything else we can do. 541 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,090 Tariq Islam: Yeah, I would say we're about at the halfway point 542 00:31:45,090 --> 00:31:48,990 as as depressing as that might sound right in this whole 543 00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:54,360 pandemic. And with everything else going on, we're still we 544 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,800 still get, I would say at least by maybe, maybe the summer. 545 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,470 We'll we'll start to see normal again. And we can start catching 546 00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:05,250 up on things. 547 00:32:07,020 --> 00:32:09,990 Jamie Duncan: Yeah, I hope to be able to visit my friends in 548 00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:10,560 September. 549 00:32:10,740 --> 00:32:12,150 John Osborne: I hadn't even thought test today. 550 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,350 But yeah, 551 00:32:20,550 --> 00:32:23,070 Jamie Duncan: yeah, it's just and I wish we had some sort of 552 00:32:23,070 --> 00:32:25,680 piffy thing. I wish that we could do some headspace 553 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,420 meditation. Yeah, no, I'm 554 00:32:27,420 --> 00:32:31,050 Tariq Islam: not about that. It is it a lot of that stuff that 555 00:32:31,050 --> 00:32:35,010 we've been doing over the last year has felt a little forced. 556 00:32:36,990 --> 00:32:39,000 You know, you kind of do it because everyone else is doing 557 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,970 it. But sometimes you just want to throw your hands up. 558 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,130 John Osborne: Were there anything, anything you guys did 559 00:32:44,130 --> 00:32:46,080 over the pandemic to help you clear your head, 560 00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:49,260 Jamie Duncan: I've tried 1000 things none of them have stuck. 561 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,620 Tariq Islam: I started working I started exercising outside, 562 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:58,500 especially after a cold, which sounds kind of crazy. But it's 563 00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:02,730 been a pretty nice release. For me, at least it's you know, a 564 00:33:02,730 --> 00:33:05,520 bit of a shock to the system to go outside when it's, you know, 565 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:12,180 2530 degrees and and be physically active. But that 566 00:33:12,180 --> 00:33:17,220 that's it's been refreshing, right? And it works for me. But 567 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:18,480 it's not for everybody. 568 00:33:18,930 --> 00:33:20,970 Jamie Duncan: The thing that that I've kind of realized and I 569 00:33:20,970 --> 00:33:23,610 told this to my wife and she looked at me like Oh, you're 570 00:33:23,610 --> 00:33:28,230 just now figuring this out the another line from a movie in 571 00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:32,340 frozen too. And we all have kids I know that you too have watched 572 00:33:32,340 --> 00:33:35,400 frozen to 1000 times but there's no doubt in my mind completing 573 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,450 the fifth on that. arc if you haven't watched frozen two you 574 00:33:39,450 --> 00:33:44,280 have to tomorrow. Olaf the snowman like crazy stuff is 575 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,920 happening in the front of the movie. And all these little kids 576 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,860 are sticking icicles in Olaf. And they're making him look 577 00:33:49,860 --> 00:33:53,760 funny and it's just a laugh line and they asked him if he's okay 578 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,940 and he looks around he's like you know, we're controlling when 579 00:33:56,940 --> 00:33:59,670 things are out of control we do what we can to do something and 580 00:33:59,670 --> 00:34:03,060 control I don't remember the exact line but I like Tarik is 581 00:34:03,060 --> 00:34:09,510 going outside and working out like rocky in the I've gone like 582 00:34:09,510 --> 00:34:13,170 I'm trying to turn my my backyard workshop into like the 583 00:34:13,170 --> 00:34:17,010 new Yankee workshop. Like so I've got like I'm doing all 584 00:34:17,010 --> 00:34:20,610 these ridiculous projects that are way over my head and ability 585 00:34:20,610 --> 00:34:24,510 or scope. Grab what you can, I guess is the only thought that I 586 00:34:24,510 --> 00:34:27,570 have. Grab onto something that gives you a little bit of a 587 00:34:27,570 --> 00:34:32,370 smile, like tark targets working out. me making things out of 588 00:34:32,370 --> 00:34:35,910 wood that isn't what you're maybe slowing down a little bit 589 00:34:35,910 --> 00:34:40,590 by looking at something else and making that important to you. 590 00:34:41,220 --> 00:34:43,320 Tariq Islam: Yeah, that's that's actually I think you just keyed 591 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,070 in on something right there right now it's not so much 592 00:34:47,070 --> 00:34:51,960 distracting but it's it's it's a shift in focus. Right so you're 593 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,640 not feeling like you're always just constantly driving towards 594 00:34:56,850 --> 00:34:59,970 you know that that competitive like I need to know more tech 595 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:06,780 Then the next person. And and it gives, it gives you a sense of 596 00:35:06,780 --> 00:35:11,100 control that I think everybody kind of lost last year when the 597 00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:16,740 pandemic hit. And I think that's really important. You know, and 598 00:35:16,740 --> 00:35:23,760 that's also I think, why we did this episode like this, right, 599 00:35:23,790 --> 00:35:27,090 because I think as much as we would love to regale you with 600 00:35:27,660 --> 00:35:31,650 the intricacies of ci CD infrastructure, and all the 601 00:35:31,650 --> 00:35:36,720 permutations they're in, I think it's, and we needed to pause 602 00:35:36,780 --> 00:35:40,140 right, and communicate that it's okay to do that. And shift focus 603 00:35:40,140 --> 00:35:42,630 a little bit acknowledge the pains that we've experienced 604 00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:49,680 over the last year. And, and, you know, be real about, you 605 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,860 know, put a little bit of humanity in, in, in even a tech 606 00:35:52,860 --> 00:35:53,520 podcast, I 607 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:53,970 Unknown: guess. 608 00:35:54,419 --> 00:35:56,279 Jamie Duncan: I think that's a great spot to kind of close it 609 00:35:56,279 --> 00:35:59,279 up on it's john, any closing thoughts, words of wisdom? 610 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:00,150 John Osborne: Now, what 611 00:36:00,149 --> 00:36:02,249 Jamie Duncan: do you what do you do to stay sane, john, 612 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:05,040 Tariq Islam: he was oddly started there. 613 00:36:06,780 --> 00:36:10,650 John Osborne: I watched a lot of the office. There you go. I 614 00:36:10,650 --> 00:36:13,440 started working out a couple months ago. And during the 615 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:18,600 pandemic, towards the end, I started taking walks at night, 616 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,220 which was really helpful, because I wasn't really having 617 00:36:20,220 --> 00:36:23,340 enough time to work out. And then at the start of the 618 00:36:23,340 --> 00:36:26,910 pandemic, I was trying to keep the same speed. So it started, I 619 00:36:26,910 --> 00:36:29,370 was sleeping like three or four hours a night and just totally 620 00:36:29,370 --> 00:36:34,770 destroyed. My ability to focus on that stuff. So one thing I 621 00:36:34,770 --> 00:36:38,520 realized is like, you know, if, if 2020 if there's ever a 2020, 622 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,300 again, hope there isn't, you know, I'm gonna prioritize 623 00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:46,350 getting a certain amount of rest from from the start and just try 624 00:36:46,350 --> 00:36:49,440 to live that every day because I totally just tried to keep the 625 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,850 same pace and just really, everything kind of fell apart 626 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,300 after about two months of four hours of sleep. So I think sleep 627 00:36:57,300 --> 00:36:59,880 is just one of those things where you kind of take it for 628 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,780 granted, but it's, you know, you're paying it somewhere, 629 00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:06,000 right? You can your neck, if your body wants eight hours, you 630 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,780 can't just get for continuously and expect things to be okay, 631 00:37:09,780 --> 00:37:10,440 because they won't 632 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,870 Jamie Duncan: get you're gonna pay up at some point. Yes. Or 633 00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:15,810 someone is, yeah, maybe your kids and maybe your wife and 634 00:37:15,810 --> 00:37:19,860 maybe the guy, you know, not wearing a mask at the gas 635 00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:22,740 station. Exactly. Which may have happened to me once about a 636 00:37:22,740 --> 00:37:23,160 month ago. 637 00:37:24,630 --> 00:37:26,580 John Osborne: You're putting it on a credit card, and some you 638 00:37:26,580 --> 00:37:28,080 know, there's interest on that. So, 639 00:37:28,530 --> 00:37:30,060 Jamie Duncan: all right, everyone, well, we appreciate 640 00:37:30,060 --> 00:37:33,450 it. Next time, and we're gonna try one of the things that we 641 00:37:33,450 --> 00:37:39,660 want to control is getting back on a good schedule in 2021. And 642 00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:42,960 we'll pick up ci CD next time, and until then, take a deep 643 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,770 breath. The work will be there. When you after you've calmed 644 00:37:46,770 --> 00:37:50,340 down and enjoyed something that's right. 645 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:50,850 Tariq Islam: And mask 646 00:37:50,850 --> 00:37:54,360 Jamie Duncan: up. Yeah, and wear your damn mask or I'm gonna yell 647 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:54,600 at you. 648 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:56,820 John Osborne: Or a cover is supposed to cover your nose. 649 00:37:56,850 --> 00:37:58,080 Okay. Yeah. 650 00:37:59,639 --> 00:38:01,679 Tariq Islam: My God seriously. 651 00:38:03,540 --> 00:38:04,260 John Osborne: covers you. 652 00:38:05,550 --> 00:38:06,540 Jamie Duncan: Thanks a lot, everyone.